tyabblemons Said:

Why I left my favourite Facebook group

I was put in the most terrible position, of having to leave my favourite Facebook group. The Pet Rat Lovers group are a very warm bunch of people, and the page is generally well run - with minimal input from admin. It's the largest rat interest group on Facebook, boasting 1,200 members, but of course, only a handful of dedicated regulars do the bulk of the posting. Most posts are about a loved rat that has passed on, or a new arrival, or questions about health and care.

The part I loved the most about the page is the photographs of other people's rats, and their cages. There are a couple of very talented photographers in the group who put a lot of time and effort into creating excellent pictures. But even those pics taken with just a smartphone and discussed were invaluable. Lots of pics are posted, and I enjoy them all. I've posted my own work from time to time. I don't post much of my studio work, but anything I take with my iPhone is usually okay to publish.

I'm not paranoid about my work being stolen. We live in an era of digital images, and such images are no longer worth any real money. Back in the 1980's, you could sell a good picture easily. A couple of years ago, I captured a clear picture of a man reading a newspaper while driving a huge truck. I couldn't sell this image, and I tried hard - but many media outlets encouraged me to 'submit' my work. Newspapers are a dying industry - they didn't want to buy it. TV and internet media can get images like my one for free. It was a good pic, but it was worthless. So I woke up to the fact that digital images are now captured by just about everybody, and they have no currency anymore. However, I still want to try to maintain control over my images, and under no circumstances will I ever release rights to my art, except if that work is sold. Facebook's own ToS are very savage for artists - and we have to be careful about what is uploaded there. But the Pet Rat Lover's group have claimed ownership of every picture I have uploaded to their page. I certainly won't upload so much as an iPhone snap to the page under the new ToS.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. You see, I was forced to leave the Pet Rat Lovers group because they posted new Terms of Service (ToS), which read like a company contract (impossible, technical wording designed to confuse rather than clarify), and claimed ownership of every picture posted, and just about any bit of text. In attempting to block spammers, they locked up their members so tight that it's nearly impossible to post something which doesn't break the rules in some way. Even if a post didn't breach the rules, the ToS are written so poorly that a user could never be sure if they were breaking them or not - they would rely on 'clarification' from admin. What constitutes as 'veterinary advice' for instance? Is it okay to repeat something your vet said?

The actual Terms of Service are very long, and I will include them at the end of this post, in case you're masochistic enough to read them. Remember, this is a pet rat fancier's page - not a business (or the CIA!)

I believe they were written by Cynthia Philip and Holly Gold. These are both very nice people, and I can't imagine what they're thinking to resort to such draconian legal moves on a pet's page. Holly started the group, a few years ago now, and Cynthia is her 'right-hand' admin. They both work well as a team, and to date have run the group very well, with little flak occurring on the page itself. They deal with all issues correctly, in PM. They never publicly berate a member. They are a good team to have running this popular group.

I can't understand what made them think that these rules were required! As an admin of popular page myself, I know how frustrating spammers can be, and others, who just want to abuse the popularity of the page. We must constantly be alert for people abusing the page. We haven't had to resort to making any rules at all - our members are all older, responsible people who rarely put a foot wrong. They value the page, and so they look after it. They don't need admin chasing them around with a big stick!

Pet Rat Lovers group is not a closed group! All traffic appears in my news feed. On a busy day, rat traffic can become a bit much, and I've considered it to be a bit spammy at times. The issue of making the group a closed group (which would stop the news feed posts) was discussed, but the senior admin of Pet Rat Lovers did not even comment on the issue that was raging on. The members were divided, with the majority of the group wanting to change the group to a closed group to stop the spammy posts. I did argue for an open group at the time. There was much less traffic back then. Obviously the admins of the group wanted it left open, because they ignored the huge swell of opinion that suggested the group should be closed. They made no official statement regarding the matter, and the issue is still in limbo.

Well, there are a few things about these ToS that put up a brick wall for me. For a start, there is their complexity and construction, and wording. This is very poorly done, and it would be a HUGE effort by anyone to even read and understand what is written. Those that have taken the time to read them have posted their horror at what they contain. If you can stand reading them, you'll find that Pet Rat Lovers group take possession of every piece of traffic that is posted on their page. They think they have a right to do that, as their page is their brand.

Indeed, they do have a right to try to protect their page in this manner. It is compulsory for all members to type 'I agree' in the comments to acknowledge the new ToS. Members are blindly typing 'I agree' on the post, despite the objections from some members, and those members stating that they do not wish to sign such an agreement. It is assumed that those who don't type 'I agree' in the comments will be removed from the group.

If I can't upload my rat pics there, and I have to be careful about what I say in case it breaches some obscure clause of the ToS, then the group has lost my interest. It has become work to do anything other than 'like' other people's posts - the safest interaction of all.

So, I posted this:

I have left the group. I'm disappointed. The other rat groups on Facebook are pretty lame, and their communities are not very active. I'm fast losing faith in all things Facebook actually. My pet peeve is having my news feed suddenly jump about ten posts while I'm trying to read it. When it does that now, I close Facebook in the hope that they can see this in the Analytics - I can see this kind of info on Google Analytics for my websites. I want Facebook to know that I am deliberately closing their page when they pull crap like that.

I still have Cynthia Philip on my friends list, and I have no plans to remove her. She is a very nice person who is very community minded. However, I think the new rules are her idea - they have her hallmarks on them. I would like Cynthia to understand that I (respectfully and candidly) believe power has gone to her head, and she has created 'busy' work for all members, just to satisfy her own ego. The rules are not required to protect the group. Facebook's own ToS cover abusive behaviour - and allow for an admin to remove a member without explanation. There is nothing special about rat content that it needs to be specifically mentioned in a set of rules outside of Facebook's ToS.

(Update: Cynthia has since stated that she did not write the ToS. After Cynthia read this post, she removed me as a friend, and removed me from another group as well.)

Farewell Pet Rat Lovers. I've been a member for years. I've been active, and 'like' posts every day. I often comment, and I post stuff of my own. It's sad that I think the members will mostly accept the ToS. There is some resistance, but people are agreeing. People give away their freedom, and then complain when they find all their rights have been taken away. People's rights disappear in tiny, hard to detect nips, never in a block.

Wanna know how useless these ToS are? I'm breaching them by publishing them here. In fact, I'm supposedly breaching international (!) copyright laws! But these do allow me to take a snippet, which is covered by (copyright) law - you may reproduce up to a certain amount of material for your own purposes - even commercial ones. In a book, I think you can copy a page and a third of text, but don't quote me, I'm rusty. However, I know enough to know that if it came to a legal battle, I could get these ToS thrown out before the trial even begins. They would not be recognised as a legal document. They are worthless. Just as well. The Indemnification section (3) says that I will be responsible for their legal costs!

At the time of writing, more than a day after the new ToS were announced, there have been 47 members out of 1,200 agree. There were two objections and 1 was unsure. I guess they'll be purging around 1,100 members. Maybe I should start a group?

(Update: I've since realised that the ToS were posted about 12 months ago - but the conversation on the pinned thread discussing them and containing member's objections was current. I had just never bothered to read them.)

Update - December, 2013:

Cynthia Philip left Pet Rat Lovers group. The Terms of Use were changed. The new ToU are much simpler and clearly state that the artist retains ownership of the image. The group went from being an open group to a closed group, and I remained friends with Holly. After discussing the situation with Holly, I asked for and received permission to join Pet Rat Lovers group once again.

Note that the Terms of Use reproduced below are no longer the ToU of the Pet Rat Lovers Facebook group.

Here are the Pet Rat Lovers group Terms Of Service. Be amazed!

Terms Of Use For Pet Rat Lovers Forum

By Holly Gold and Cynthia Philip in Pet Rat Lovers (Files)

Please read and then post "Agree" in the comments.

Pet Rat Lovers Group Agreement

Pet Rat Lovers is a social group for people to talk about pet rats. Although health issues may be discussed, it does not take the place of a veterinarian.

The FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers Web Site (the "Site") is an online information service provided by Pet Rat Lovers ("FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers "), subject to your compliance with the terms and conditions set forth below. PLEASE READ THIS DOCUMENT CAREFULLY BEFORE ACCESSING OR USING THE SITE. BY ACCESSING OR USING THE SITE, YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS SET FORTH BELOW. IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO BE BOUND BY THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, YOU MAY NOT ACCESS OR USE THE SITE. FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers MAY MODIFY THIS AGREEMENT AT ANY TIME, AND SUCH MODIFICATIONS SHALL BE EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UPON POSTING OF THE MODIFIED AGREEMENT ON THE SITE. YOU AGREE TO REVIEW THE AGREEMENT PERIODICALLY TO BE AWARE OF SUCH MODIFICATIONS AND YOUR CONTINUED ACCESS OR USE OF THE SITE SHALL BE DEEMED YOUR CONCLUSIVE ACCEPTANCE OF THE MODIFIED AGREEMENT.

1. Copyright, Licenses and Idea Submissions.

The entire contents of the Site are protected by international copyright and trademark laws. The owner of the copyrights and trademarks are FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers, its affiliates or other third party licensors.

YOU MAY NOT MODIFY, COPY, REPRODUCE, REPUBLISH, UPLOAD, POST, TRANSMIT, OR DISTRIBUTE, IN ANY MANNER, THE MATERIAL ON THE SITE, INCLUDING TEXT, GRAPHICS, CODE AND/OR SOFTWARE. You may print and download portions of material from the different areas of the Site solely for your own non-commercial use provided that you agree not to change or delete any copyright or proprietary notices from the materials.

Should any material be used for purposes other that the Facebook Group Pet Rat Lovers, prior written permission must be aquired by origianal poster and also be given credit to said owner.

Members of the group Pet Rat Lovers are welcome to submit fictional and nonfictional written pieces as documents, for publication in the group library. Holly Gold, and Cynthia Philip reserve the right to edit and/or delete any and all documents. The option to delete a document that you, the member, create, remains with you - you have the final word on whether it can be published here or not.

You agree that you shall have no recourse against FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers for any alleged or actual infringement or misappropriation of any proprietary right in your communications to FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers.

TRADEMARKS.
Publications, products, content or services referenced herein or on the Site are the exclusive trademarks or servicemarks of FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers. Other product and company names mentioned in the Site may be the trademarks of their respective owners.

2a. Use of the Site.
You understand that, except for information, products or services clearly identified as being supplied by FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers, FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers does not operate, control or endorse any information, products or services on the Internet in any way. Except for FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers- identified information, products or services, all information, products and services offered through the Site or on the Internet generally are offered by third parties, that are not affiliated with FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers. You also understand that FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers cannot and does not guarantee or warrant that files available for downloading through the Site will be free of infection or viruses, worms, Trojan horses or other code that manifest contaminating or destructive properties. You are responsible for implementing sufficient procedures and checkpoints to satisfy your particular requirements for accuracy of data input and output, and for maintaining a means external to the Site for the reconstruction of any lost data.
FaceBook Pet Rat Lovers is a group run by and for pet rat lovers. The "target-audience" of the group is G-Rated (Youth Friendly.) When you use the forum, you agree NOT to post material that would NOT be appropriate for all ages, nor bring up "controversial subjects" in your posts.
When posting, please, English only. Other languages used in posts may/will be deleted.

YOU ASSUME TOTAL RESPONSIBILITY AND RISK FOR YOUR USE OF THE SITE AND THE INTERNET. FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers PROVIDES THE SITE AND RELATED INFORMATION "AS IS" AND DOES NOT MAKE ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, REPRESENTATIONS OR ENDORSEMENTS WHATSOEVER (INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION WARRANTIES OF TITLE OR NONINFRINGEMENT, OR THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE) WITH REGARD TO THE SERVICE, ANY MERCHANDISE INFORMATION OR SERVICE PROVIDED THROUGH THE SERVICE OR ON THE INTERNET GENERALLY, AND FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY COST OR DAMAGE ARISING EITHER DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY FROM ANY SUCH TRANSACTION. IT IS SOLELY YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO EVALUATE THE ACCURACY, COMPLETENESS AND USEFULNESS OF ALL OPINIONS, ADVICE, SERVICES, MERCHANDISE AND OTHER INFORMATION PROVIDED THROUGH THE SERVICE OR ON THE INTERNET GENERALLY. FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers DOES NOT WARRANT THAT THE SERVICE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE OR THAT DEFECTS IN THE SERVICE WILL BE CORRECTED.

2b. Solicitation of Money
Under no circumstances will solicitation of monies be permitted on the Facebook Group Pet Rat Lovers (unless prior permission have been given in writing from the Administrator, Cynthia Philip). Any funds raised through the sale of products should not include where profits are going unless they are going to Bunnies In Need or have prior written permission. Should any member of the Facebook Group Pet Rat Lovers need financial assissatance to be able to get veterinary care for their pet rat, send a private message to Cynthia Philip and should you qualify for financial aid, you will be advised to apply through Bunnies In Need at www.bunniesinneed.net Bunnies In Need is a non profit organization run by Cynthia Philip that has recently expanded help to rats. Please be advised that proper steps must be taken in order to qualify.

2c. Adding Members to our 'Member Owned Businesses' Listing
The Facebook group Pet Rat Lovers has a document in which all members that own a business can be added in order to help promote small businesses. However, to be eligible to be included in this document, one must be and active member in the Facebook Group Pet Rat Lovers.
To be considered active, you must post at least 4 times per month (not including anything related to your business).
Once any member has become inactive, that business listing will be deleted. To have it reactivated, one must become active for one month prior to having the business relisted.

2d. Solicitation of Members to Other Groups
Permission must be saught BEFORE posting about another group for purpose of solicitation of members in the Facebook group Pet Rat Lovers. Any and all posts that have not received prior permission will be deleted.

LIMITATION OF LIABILITY
FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers makes no representations whatsoever about any other web site which you may access through this one or which may link to this Site.

3. Indemnification.
You agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers, its owner, and moderator(s), against all losses, expenses, damages and costs, including reasonable attorneys' fees, resulting from any violation of this Agreement (including negligent or wrongful conduct) by you or any other person accessing the Service.

4. Third Party Rights.
The provisions of paragraphs 2 (Use of the Service), and 3 (Indemnification) are for the benefit of FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers and its owner, moderator(s), suppliers, and any third party information providers to the Service. Each of these individuals or entities shall have the right to assert and enforce those provisions directly against you on its own behalf.

5.Term; Termination.
This Agreement may be terminated by either party without notice at any time for any reason. The provisions of paragraphs 1 (Copyright, Licenses and Idea Submissions), 2 (Use of the Service), 3 (Indemnification), 4 (Third Party Rights) and 6 (Miscellaneous) shall survive any termination of this Agreement.
"Legitimate" (or otherwise) ratteries who use the forum simply as advertising space will be deleted. (In order to advertise your "oops" litter, please get written permission from an administrator.)
Please, no 4H Groups. Feeder Breeders will not be tolerated and are not allowed as members of Pet Rat Lovers. Under NO circumstances will this disscussion be allowed...EVER. ANY feeder breeders that have purposefully hid their identity and intent of joining PRL, will be automatically banned, no warnings.

6.Miscellaneous.
This Agreement shall all be governed and construed in accordance with the laws of The United States of America applicable to agreements made and to be performed in The United States of America. You agree that any legal action or proceeding between FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers and you for any purpose concerning this Agreement or the parties' obligations hereunder shall be brought exclusively in a federal or state court of competent jurisdiction sitting in The United States of America . Any cause of action or claim you may have with respect to the Service must be commenced within one (1) year after the claim or cause of action arises or such claim or cause of action is barred. FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers's failure to insist upon or enforce strict performance of any provision of this Agreement shall not be construed as a waiver of any provision or right. Neither the course of conduct between the parties nor trade practice shall act to modify any provision of this Agreement. FaceBook Group Pet Rat Lovers may assign its rights and duties under this Agreement to any party at any time without notice to you.

The Moderator's Service
You agree that the moderator reserves the right to modify or discontinue provision of this web site and its services, and to remove the data you provide, either temporarily or permanently, at any time, without notice and without any liability towards you, The moderator will not be held responsible or liable for timeliness, removal of information, failure to store information, inaccuracy of information, or improper delivery of information.

Forum Etiquette/Controversial Subject Matter

Remember that the biggest rule for using the group is: Treat everyone with respect, even and especially when you disagree with them. Flaming of any kind will not be tolerated. Such posts can and will be deleted by administrator(s) with no prior notice and membership will be put on moderation. Repeat offenses will cause membership of offender to be terminated.

Sometimes, it is less easy to identify "controversial subjects" than it is to identify "inappropriate materials." A good guideline is that the purpose of the group is to better the quality of lives of pet rats, and to share stories about the pet rats we know. An example of a "controversial subject" might be rats used as "feeders" for reptiles or birds.

Pornography, discrimination on ANY basis and blasphemy will not be tolerated on the forum. You may be banned without further warning.

Of course, free speech is encouraged here. If you are unsure whether something you would like to post is a "controversial subject" or not, please get in touch with an administrator by PM and discuss it with that person.

Posts that are deemed "controversial" are subject to removal by the owner and/or moderator(s).

We politely request that swearing be kept off the forum. If you make a post that contains swearing, and words such as 'hell', 'damn' etc, that post may be deleted by an administrator, or an administrator may be in touch with you via PM to ask you to remove your post. Subsituting characters for letters is still not acceptable.

We usually work by a "three strikes, you're out" with the above rules and guidelines, but we reserve the right to ban anyone from the group.

Three Strikes Policy

If members of the Facebook group Pet Rat Lovers forum post information, pictures, or any content that the moderator considers objectionable for any reason, same may be deleted. Members will be warned in a private message about inappropriate posts. Each member is entitled to three of these warnings. If a member chooses to persist in posting material that is inappropriate/objectionable, they may be banned from the group without further notice.

Privacy policy
Please do not give out any personal information such as phone number, postal address, zip code, last name, or anything you do not wish others to know. If you choose to ignore this request, the Facebbok Group Pet Rat Lovers owner and/or moerator(s) cannot be held responsible for the consequences. Please know privacy is very important to us; we will never divulge your email address to anyone without first asking your consent. If you get "spam" emails from a member please report the email address to us so we can investigate.

Your conduct
By using this forum or any service provided, you explicitly agree that: (a) you will not provide any content or conduct yourself in any way that may be construed as: unlawful; illegal; threatening; harmful; abusive; harassing; stalking; tortious; defamatory; libelous; vulgar; obscene; offensive; objectionable; pornographic; designed to interfere with or disrupt the operation of this forum or any service provided; infected with a virus or other destructive or deleterious programming routine; giving rise to civil or criminal liability; or in violation of an applicable local, national or international law; (b) you will not impersonate or misrepresent your association with any person or entity; you will not forge or otherwise seek to conceal or misrepresent the origin of any content provided by you; (c) you will not collect or harvest any information about other users; (d) you will not provide, and you will not use this forum to provide, any content or service in any commercial manner, or in any manner that would involve junk mail, spam, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or any other form of unauthorized advertising or commerce; you will not use this forum to promote or operate any service or content without the moderator's prior written consent; (e) you will not provide any content that may give rise to the moderator being held civilly or criminally liable, or that may be considered a violation of any local, national or international law, including -- but not limited to -- laws relating to copyrights, trademarks, patents, or trade secrets.

Age and Responsibility:

Any minors requesting membership of the Facebbok Group Pet Rat Lovers will be asked to give written permission by a parent or gaurdian. Also, any minor in the Facebook group Pet Rat Lovers agrees to take personal responsibility for their posts. No forum administrator can be held responsible for the actions surrounding a minor's experience on the forum, as there is no way for moderators and administrators to determine the true age of the member.

Responsible Breeding

The Facebook Group Pet Rat Lovers supports a policy of responsible breeding - that is to say, that if you breed, you are a registered rattery.
While it is not a condition of the group that you must be a registered rattery if you are a regular breeder, it is encouraged.
We always love to see babies who will have a good home, and try to help as much as we can in the event of "oops" litters. We strongly suggest that you contact one of the admins before posting any rats to adopt out. We are not however, a group to be posting rats for sale. Should you need to rehome your rats, they are to be wihtout cost. Should you have any accessories to sell, that may be discussed with the interested adopter off the Facebook Group Pet Rat Lovers only.

Miscellaneous information
(i) In the event that any provision of these Terms of use is deemed to conflict with legislation by a court with jurisdiction over the parties, the said provision will be interpreted to reflect the original intentions of the parties in accordance with applicable law, and the remainder of these Terms of use will remain valid and applicable; (ii) The failure of either party to assert any right under these Terms of use will not be considered to be a waiver of that party's right, and the said right will remain in full force and effect; (iii) You agree that any claim or cause in respect of this web site or its services must be filed within one (1) year after such claim or cause arose, or the said claim or cause will be forever barred, without regard to any contrary legislation; (iv) The moderator may assign the moderator's rights and obligations under these Terms of use; in this event, the moderator will be relieved of any further obligation.

Any rights not expressly granted herein are reserved.

Tag: legal

Why I left my favourite Facebook group

Terms Of Use For Pet Rat Lovers Forum